That doesn't sound soo good
I guess we'll see if that does or does not prove to be a useful treatment. Til then it's copper or hypo for me 
Treating a purple tang for ich
- Thread starter THE WOOKIE
- Start date
That doesn't sound soo good
I guess we'll see if that does or does not prove to be a useful treatment. Til then it's copper or hypo for me 
Docstach
Non-member
Interesting, Do you have a link to the study? Not all of the quinine drugs are created equal, some are worse than others (at least with humans and from non-scientific observations in fish). Chloroquine phosphate seems to be handled better than quinine sulfate or others. At least from doing an admittedly quick literature search, I would not call it a nasty carcinogen. There was one article suggesting possible frameshift mutations in a bacterial model. Again, just from observational reports it seems like it could be tolerated better than copper. I guess my point was, if one HAD to treat a display tank with something I would prefer to CP versus copper.
I cannot link directly, but here you go:
Bassleer, 1996
Gratzek, 1988
These studies show mixed results.
Malachite Green is a respiratory poison and will deform an embryo. It is also a suspected carcinogen...I should have been more clear. It is banned for use in the food supply. As far as Chloroquine goes, I am not sure what the doses are for fish treatment, but this is a drug that will kill you if you overdose a tiny bit.
For me UV sterilizer has worked every time. There is a lot of debate of UV sterilizes on ick. I have 5 tanks and have gotten rid of 4 times over the years in different tanks. Of course you can never get rid of it 100%. I believe every fish carries it just in low numbers. I think the key is to run the pump that is feeding the UV in the display tank, not in the sump or anywhere else. Actually just finished treating in my frag tank that have a couple of fish and one had ick. I run it for a month at a time when treating because of the cycle of the parasite. After about 1 to 2 weeks I can't spot anymore on the fish, but like I said run it for a month just to make sure. You also have to use one that is enough watts. Smaller tanks I run a 25 watt, bigger I use a 40 watt. If you have any questions shoot me a pm and I will be more than happy to help you.
Respectfully, ich is not always present. It is a parasite that requires a host. If you take all fish out of your display and treat them with copper or hypo properly while leaving the tank fallow for 60 days, it will be gone. This really isn't something that is debated anywhere other than people perpetuating this myth.
UV does not cure it either. Also not really up for debate. That's why you have to keep treating as you say. Because it temporarily minimizes it just enough for you to think you've "cured" it, then it comes back and you treat all over again and say ich is always present in low levels.
Again, ich is a parasite that requires a host. It cannot live without one for longer than a few weeks. There is ample scientific research detailing the life cycle of this parasite, actual cures, and refuting what you've wrote.
I am not trying to be a jerk, but this hobby is frustrating enough because we know so little. What's even more frustrating is when we actually have ironclad knowledge of something, but myths keep getting perpetuated. Saying ich is always present and UV cures it (which is totally contradictory by the way) is the same as saying SPS can live without light.
Please just stop so we can eradicate this myth from the hobby for good.
higorc
Call me IGOR :)
+1 on UV Sterilizer for me.
I did everything I was supposed to get rid of Ick; Tank Fallow for almost 3 months, treated fish with Hypo and Cupramine (Not together obviously!).
After doing all that and still getting an Ick break-out 2 weeks after re-introducing the only 2 of my fish that survived this ordeal, I did the only thing I hadn't tried yet. I installed a 40W Aqua UV sterilizer.
Just to be clear. UV Sterilizer DOES NOT CURE/ERADICATE ICH. But they do kill some of the "free swimming trophonts/theronts” . I believe UV sterilizer makes marine Ick “MANAGEABLE” for the fish to naturally fight them off.
I have seen a few Ick spots on my Yellow Belly Hippo 2 or 3 times since installing the UV sterilizer. But he is able to fight it off and it’s gone in 2 to 3 days max. He wasn’t able to shake the Ich off prior to the UV.
I know I have Ick in my system. I have gone from trying to eradicate it to “Making it Manageable” for my fishes to beat it. This is my experience and 2 cents with Ich and UV sterilizers.
This is a hot topic and could go on forever, so let’s get back to Wookie’s original question!
Higor
I did everything I was supposed to get rid of Ick; Tank Fallow for almost 3 months, treated fish with Hypo and Cupramine (Not together obviously!).
After doing all that and still getting an Ick break-out 2 weeks after re-introducing the only 2 of my fish that survived this ordeal, I did the only thing I hadn't tried yet. I installed a 40W Aqua UV sterilizer.
Just to be clear. UV Sterilizer DOES NOT CURE/ERADICATE ICH. But they do kill some of the "free swimming trophonts/theronts” . I believe UV sterilizer makes marine Ick “MANAGEABLE” for the fish to naturally fight them off.
I have seen a few Ick spots on my Yellow Belly Hippo 2 or 3 times since installing the UV sterilizer. But he is able to fight it off and it’s gone in 2 to 3 days max. He wasn’t able to shake the Ich off prior to the UV.
I know I have Ick in my system. I have gone from trying to eradicate it to “Making it Manageable” for my fishes to beat it. This is my experience and 2 cents with Ich and UV sterilizers.
This is a hot topic and could go on forever, so let’s get back to Wookie’s original question!
Higor
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acrofragger
Non-member
its never gone and try living with an itchy throat for a year see how that feels ..................hypo or copper and 80 percent of people do not execute the treatment correctly so it fails ............................leebeccas article on ich is the only thing i will ever go by ............................all in all put a ich covered tang in a 125 gallon system that is mature and is open fr swimming and watch how it goes away on its own .....happy fish dont have ich
Exactly...the copper or hypo treatment wasn't done correctly if it fails. Also, a lot of people cross contaminate equipment even if they do it the right way. There is absolutely no way ich can survive hypo or copper when done properly. It's like saying people can live on the sun.
As far as larger tanks go, indeed stress is likely the culprit for ich outbreaks. I just want to be clear because ich does not magically appear. The fish already has it. The confined space stresses the fish and makes it more susceptible to disease. Ich is rarely observed in the wild. The parasites are few, there are natural predators, and when they reproduce, it's in an ocean, not a 30 gallon tank. How can I say a fish has ich yet it's rarely observed in the wild? Because I am talking about carrying a single parasite, which can be eaten by a predator, vs. an infestation that kills the host. Many wild animals have parasites and do not die. Ich can live in the gills and you cannot see it without gill clippings. Another reason why people think it's gone and become puzzled when it returns.
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Who said UV's cure ick? Who are you to basically tell me to stop spreading myths because you believe they don't work? Have you ever had a case where u had ick and you tried running a UV? So your telling me that me having success 4 out of 4 times is just a coincidence? You don't have to teach me the life cycle of ick. I believe I'm knowledgable enough with 8 years experience in this hobby to know the basics of what I'm doing. Can you please explain to me how "leaving a fish tank fish less for 8 weeks" gets rid of ick when the parasite dies if it doesn't find a host in 24 to 48 hours? You shouldn't tell people they basically shouldn't share their experience. Just because it hasn't worked for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for others. I'm willing to bet that 95% of people that say they don't work is pure hear say. I think hear say stuff is the biggest problem in this hobby rather than myths. For the other person that said stick a purple tang covered in ick in a 125 and it ill go away on its own, is not true IMHO. I have a puffer that had a bad case years ago in my 125 and was the only fish in there at the time and it never went away. Actually got worse. Started running a 40 watt and dramatically improved with a week. My ick cases don't keep coming back, they have happened in different tanks. If you don't believe that a fish lives with ick in low numbers you have the right to believe that. Doesn't your body fight off germs on a regular basis and you feel fine? I believe it's a lot less stressful for a fish to stay in its tank and try to manage it that way then to rip a fish out of its tank stick it in another tank and run either hypo or copper. There is more than one way to skin a cat my friend.
Ick should be gone in no more than 30 days according to the life cycle. I understand people take precaution, but to double the amount of time according to the cycle is just not necessary in my opinion. I bet also that many more fish have died going through copper or hypo (more hypo) than trying to manage it with a UV. Don't you think trying to make a fish live through salinity at 1.009 is more stressful than the fish having ick? To me a fish has a lot better chance not taking him out of the tank and using a UV than a hypo treatment.
acrofragger
Non-member
well the 125 gallon tank alone wont cure ich ...........but the space of a nice home rather than a bedroom to live in ,is a stress reliever .
also i said a mature tank,,,,,, not no 1 yr old tank .
some fish just cant live in a glass cage no matter the size
a uv works to a deegree ,how do u get the uv in the gills where the slime coat dont help .....????
i absolutely agree that a theres many different ways to succesfully keep fish .....but the best way to inform everyone is ........
DO YOUR RESEARCH ..AND IF THE FISH IS COVERED IN WHITESPOT WHEN YOU GET HOME AND NOT AT THE LFS........THEN MOST LIKELY ITS YOUR TANK OR THE STRESS PUT ON THE FISH WHILE GETTING HOME
you want to deal with ich and have a uv and....... ich that and ich x this.......... than do what you do
but the best way is ...................to have a qt tank ,to put the fish in .and hypo and or copper the RIGHT WAY ......thats it
the uv helps again with the right flow and is a preventitive measure not one that completely deals with it
You specifically stated earlier that you believe that all fish carry ick. That's the myth part.
The 24-48 hours thing refers to the free swimming part of the life cycle. Cysts can lie dormant for some time, and the establised life cycle times are more averages than rigid facts so extending treatment beyond the minimum greatly increases the chances that the treatments will be effective, particularly the fallow time required to let ick cycle through and die out.
It's not wrong to share your experiences, but please be careful how you word them when you share.
acrofragger
Non-member
I don't believe I said anything wrong from the beginning. Just shared my experienced and got flamed for it and basically got told to stop spreading myths. I do believe that all fish carry ick, whether its one cyst or 10. You will get the parasite one way or another in my opinion, Whether its through a coral, rock, sand etc. To me saying at some point your not going to introduce a fish that doesn't have any ick is like saying you'll never get algae.
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Apparently you missed the "respectfully" and "not trying to be a jerk" part. Nobody.flamed you so relax. Scientists all over the planet have established that ich cannot live without a host. Can you live without food? This is well established. You can believe the sky is red for all I care. The rest of us worry about what is true.
mchartier
Non-member
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1992196
Treatments which work and Myths and Truths about Marine Ich
Treatments which work:
1. Hyposalinity - Using a refractometer, hold salinity at 11ppt to 12ppt until 4 weeks after the last spot was seen. (Best to use salinity, but if you use specific gravity, that equates to roughly 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units). Raise salinity slowly and observe fish for 4 more weeks. It is difficult to control pH and water quality during treatment, however this is the least stressful treatment for the fish.
2. Copper treatment - Follow medication recommendations. This can be effective in 2 to 4 weeks of treatment. After treatment, remove all copper and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Copper is a poison to the fish and creates some stress.
3.. Transfer method – The fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.
4. These are the ONLY 3 known cures that work almost 100% of the time. Other chemicals will kill the Cryptocaryon irritans parasite, but only in special conditions that are not good for the fish. Some chemicals will only kill some of the organisms, letting the others escape death to go on to multiply and infect.
Observations, Claims, and Common Myths:
1. Some Tangs seem more susceptible. This is true. Their mucous coatings are reduced in thickness and composition.
2. Cryptocaryon irritans goes away on its own. This is definitely NOT true. While Cryptocaryon irritans is only visible at one stage of its life cycle if it was once seen, then it hasn't gone away -- it's just not visible to the aquarist. Reread the life cycle described above.
3. It goes away with a ‘reef-safe’ remedy. This is not true; we all wish it was. This is one of the biggest and most 'dangerous' of the misrepresentations in the hobby. The aquarist thinks everything is okay when it isn't. What usually has happened is that the parasite has killed the fish it is able to kill and the rest have developed a resistance or immunity. The parasite is still in the aquarium, possibly infecting the gills of the fish where it can’t be seen. About 40% of fish seem able to develop this immunity.
4. It was gone then when a new fish is added, it is there again. This is not true. See 3 above. Cryptocaryon irritans wasn’t really gone or the new fish brought in the disease with it. A new addition to an aquarium can be the stress which triggers the other fish to reduce their defense or immunity, this will allow the parasite to 'bloom' to the point where the infection is now again visible to the aquarist.
5. The fish lived through the last outbreak then died during the second or subsequent outbreak. This can be true. The fish had a resistance or immunity that it lost.
6. It was accurately diagnosed as Cryptocaryon irritans, then never showed up again. It wasn’t ich or the fish quickly developed an immediate immunity or resistance, or the fish is still infected in the gills.
7. Cryptocaryon irritans can ‘hang around’ almost unnoticed with just a body spot now and then because it often resides just in the gills. This is true.
8. Aquariums always have Cryptocaryon irritans. This is untrue. Cryptocaryon irritans can be kept out of an aquarium. Just quarantine all fish, rock, sand, sponges, and filter medium and don’t let non-quarantined livestock get into the aquarium.
9. Fish always have Cryptocaryon irritans. Untrue. In the wild fish often show up to a 30% infection rate (or more) but the wild fish survive minor infections. In the tank the parasite can 'bloom' since In the tank the fish can't get away. The combination of bloom and no escape will overcome the fish. In capture and transportation the fish can share the disease and thus many wild caught marine aquarium fishes do have this parasite, but not all.
10. A fish can't be made to be totally rid of Cryptocaryon irritans. Untrue. All marine fish can be cured and rid of any Cryptocaryon irritans infection.
11. Just feed the fish well and/or feed it garlic and it will be okay. Not true. Nutrition, foods, vitamins, etc. don't cure an infected fish. An infected fish is sick and is being tortured by the itching and discomfort. It might pull through and acquire resistance or immunity (see above) but the fish is being stressed by having to contend with a parasite. Don't let this happen to the fish. Cure it!!
12. A new cure has been discovered. Very unlikely. If the aquarist thinks they have found a new cure, then have it researched and independently tested. It's easy and cheap. If it is as good as the above 3 tried and true methods then the professional veterinarians, private and public aquariums, fish farms, and I will use it. The aquarist needs to keep the perspective of how devastating this parasite is not to just the hobby but to the whole fish farming industry. Any new way of 100% treatment will make headlines!
13. If the Cryptocaryon irritans can't always be detected, then why bother with a quarantine procedure? In the confines of a small quarantine and being there for no less than 6 weeks, the Cryptocaryon irritans parasite will make itself known because the fish is weakened and the fish can't get away from being re-infected by multiplying Cryptocaryon irritans parasites. In other words, the quarantine procedure instigates a 'bloom' of the parasite which will make it visible to the aquarist. When this happens, treatment is appropriate with one of the three proven treatments.
14. All white nodules fall off the fish and move on to the cyst stage. Untrue. It has been discovered that, on very rare occasions (we don't know why) the white nodule will encyst and rupture while still on the fish.
15. UV and/or Ozone kills Cryptocaryon irritans. Ozone doesn't kill all parasites that pass through the unit, nor does the water treated with ozone kill the parasites. UV only kills the parasites that pass through the unit. Since the entire water volume does not pass through the unit, not all ich parasites will pass through the unit, so the UV will not rid an aquarium of Cryptocaryon irritans. A UV can help prevent a 'bloom' of the parasites however, and thus help in its control. UV is not a cure nor a preventative measure for Cryptocaryon irritans. When water is shared by multiple tanks, usage of UV can make spreading this parasite from tank to tank significantly less likely.
16. All spots are Cryptocaryon irritans. Untrue. Probably one of the most problematic causes for rumors and “myth-information” in the hobby is assuming that a spot is Cryptocaryon irritans when it may be another parasites or conditions (e.g., pimple-like reaction to infection) that look like Cryptocaryon irritans. The mis-diagnosis is often the cause for claims of what cured Cryptocaryon irritans, when the fish didn't have Cryptocaryon irritans to start with.
17. My LFS quarantines their fishes for 2 weeks and I only buy them to be sure they are healthy and free of Cryptocaryon irritans. Have you been reading the above? First, 2 weeks is not long enough. Secondly most LFS share water among their fish system tanks so if any new arrivals happened, the clock is effectively reset back to zero.
The truth is out there. . .Trust no one except yourself.
Treatments which work and Myths and Truths about Marine Ich
Treatments which work:
1. Hyposalinity - Using a refractometer, hold salinity at 11ppt to 12ppt until 4 weeks after the last spot was seen. (Best to use salinity, but if you use specific gravity, that equates to roughly 1.008 to 1.009 sp. gr. units). Raise salinity slowly and observe fish for 4 more weeks. It is difficult to control pH and water quality during treatment, however this is the least stressful treatment for the fish.
2. Copper treatment - Follow medication recommendations. This can be effective in 2 to 4 weeks of treatment. After treatment, remove all copper and observe fish for 4 more weeks. Copper is a poison to the fish and creates some stress.
3.. Transfer method – The fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.
4. These are the ONLY 3 known cures that work almost 100% of the time. Other chemicals will kill the Cryptocaryon irritans parasite, but only in special conditions that are not good for the fish. Some chemicals will only kill some of the organisms, letting the others escape death to go on to multiply and infect.
Observations, Claims, and Common Myths:
1. Some Tangs seem more susceptible. This is true. Their mucous coatings are reduced in thickness and composition.
2. Cryptocaryon irritans goes away on its own. This is definitely NOT true. While Cryptocaryon irritans is only visible at one stage of its life cycle if it was once seen, then it hasn't gone away -- it's just not visible to the aquarist. Reread the life cycle described above.
3. It goes away with a ‘reef-safe’ remedy. This is not true; we all wish it was. This is one of the biggest and most 'dangerous' of the misrepresentations in the hobby. The aquarist thinks everything is okay when it isn't. What usually has happened is that the parasite has killed the fish it is able to kill and the rest have developed a resistance or immunity. The parasite is still in the aquarium, possibly infecting the gills of the fish where it can’t be seen. About 40% of fish seem able to develop this immunity.
4. It was gone then when a new fish is added, it is there again. This is not true. See 3 above. Cryptocaryon irritans wasn’t really gone or the new fish brought in the disease with it. A new addition to an aquarium can be the stress which triggers the other fish to reduce their defense or immunity, this will allow the parasite to 'bloom' to the point where the infection is now again visible to the aquarist.
5. The fish lived through the last outbreak then died during the second or subsequent outbreak. This can be true. The fish had a resistance or immunity that it lost.
6. It was accurately diagnosed as Cryptocaryon irritans, then never showed up again. It wasn’t ich or the fish quickly developed an immediate immunity or resistance, or the fish is still infected in the gills.
7. Cryptocaryon irritans can ‘hang around’ almost unnoticed with just a body spot now and then because it often resides just in the gills. This is true.
8. Aquariums always have Cryptocaryon irritans. This is untrue. Cryptocaryon irritans can be kept out of an aquarium. Just quarantine all fish, rock, sand, sponges, and filter medium and don’t let non-quarantined livestock get into the aquarium.
9. Fish always have Cryptocaryon irritans. Untrue. In the wild fish often show up to a 30% infection rate (or more) but the wild fish survive minor infections. In the tank the parasite can 'bloom' since In the tank the fish can't get away. The combination of bloom and no escape will overcome the fish. In capture and transportation the fish can share the disease and thus many wild caught marine aquarium fishes do have this parasite, but not all.
10. A fish can't be made to be totally rid of Cryptocaryon irritans. Untrue. All marine fish can be cured and rid of any Cryptocaryon irritans infection.
11. Just feed the fish well and/or feed it garlic and it will be okay. Not true. Nutrition, foods, vitamins, etc. don't cure an infected fish. An infected fish is sick and is being tortured by the itching and discomfort. It might pull through and acquire resistance or immunity (see above) but the fish is being stressed by having to contend with a parasite. Don't let this happen to the fish. Cure it!!
12. A new cure has been discovered. Very unlikely. If the aquarist thinks they have found a new cure, then have it researched and independently tested. It's easy and cheap. If it is as good as the above 3 tried and true methods then the professional veterinarians, private and public aquariums, fish farms, and I will use it. The aquarist needs to keep the perspective of how devastating this parasite is not to just the hobby but to the whole fish farming industry. Any new way of 100% treatment will make headlines!
13. If the Cryptocaryon irritans can't always be detected, then why bother with a quarantine procedure? In the confines of a small quarantine and being there for no less than 6 weeks, the Cryptocaryon irritans parasite will make itself known because the fish is weakened and the fish can't get away from being re-infected by multiplying Cryptocaryon irritans parasites. In other words, the quarantine procedure instigates a 'bloom' of the parasite which will make it visible to the aquarist. When this happens, treatment is appropriate with one of the three proven treatments.
14. All white nodules fall off the fish and move on to the cyst stage. Untrue. It has been discovered that, on very rare occasions (we don't know why) the white nodule will encyst and rupture while still on the fish.
15. UV and/or Ozone kills Cryptocaryon irritans. Ozone doesn't kill all parasites that pass through the unit, nor does the water treated with ozone kill the parasites. UV only kills the parasites that pass through the unit. Since the entire water volume does not pass through the unit, not all ich parasites will pass through the unit, so the UV will not rid an aquarium of Cryptocaryon irritans. A UV can help prevent a 'bloom' of the parasites however, and thus help in its control. UV is not a cure nor a preventative measure for Cryptocaryon irritans. When water is shared by multiple tanks, usage of UV can make spreading this parasite from tank to tank significantly less likely.
16. All spots are Cryptocaryon irritans. Untrue. Probably one of the most problematic causes for rumors and “myth-information” in the hobby is assuming that a spot is Cryptocaryon irritans when it may be another parasites or conditions (e.g., pimple-like reaction to infection) that look like Cryptocaryon irritans. The mis-diagnosis is often the cause for claims of what cured Cryptocaryon irritans, when the fish didn't have Cryptocaryon irritans to start with.
17. My LFS quarantines their fishes for 2 weeks and I only buy them to be sure they are healthy and free of Cryptocaryon irritans. Have you been reading the above? First, 2 weeks is not long enough. Secondly most LFS share water among their fish system tanks so if any new arrivals happened, the clock is effectively reset back to zero.
The truth is out there. . .Trust no one except yourself.
