Need opinions on STN

[GobyWanKenobie]

I have decent growth and good polyp extension, yet I always seem to have one piece that starts to stn from the bottom up. It usually starts a month or so after moving the piece from the sandbed to the upper part of the tank. There are no lenses on my led lights. Could it be the lights are too strong or the light spread is just not as good at the top of the tank? Could it be the water current is wrong at the top? My parameters are good, and I can often save the piece by putting it back on the sandbed, but that's not where I want my sps to be. What stress factors cause growth on the top and stn on the bottom? I only want to change one variable at a time. Should I mess with the lights or the water current?

 

[JasonandSarah]

I've always been told that stn at the base is usually flow related. To low of flow, but I don't really see how you'd have better flow at the sand bed? What kind of flow do you have?
If it was lighting it wouldn't really make sence, because to strong of light and you'd most likely get burnt tips. low light could cause it at the base but I don't see how that could be with the frags doing good on the sand bed? Also low light or shadowing at the base would take awhile to get to the point of stn.

 

[delta]

parameters? maintenance? Quarantine process? In tank Flow?

Need something to go on the rest would just be guess works, easier to rule out as many possibilities

 

[cilyjr]

Yes more info would be nice.

I would doubt the lighting is a factor. I think you'd see an overall loss and/ or lightning of color and a potential of bleaching before STN.

In my experience a recent large spike of alkalinity will sometimes trigger a STN event even within excepted parameters ie a spike from 8.0 to 11 on the dkh scale might help get it started.

Once it starts it rarely self corrects without intervention. Let's say it was a alk spike and you catch it and normalize parameters, the STN will usually continue until affected tissue is cut.

Again this is just anecdotal but I have come to pretty firmly believe it

 

[GobyWanKenobie]

Parameters are good. Am=0, NO3=0, NO2=0, PH=8.2, Alk=8.7, Ca=450. Very little algae. Always quarantine. I had a small alk swing during Xmas vacation, but it's been stable for almost 3 weeks. No new corals were added since Nov. 15. These corals were moved from the sandbed to upper portion of tank on Dec. 8. Only 2/7 new corals are showing signs of stress. Tank is an RSM with DIY leds. Best guess Cree 3 watt blues and whites. Probably 4 inches from water surface. Probably 8 or 9 inches from top of corals. All varieties of birdsnest grow rapidly on top layer of tank. Currently the flow is only from the two pumps located at the top of the tank. Pump 1 is twice as strong as pump 2, but the stn can occur anywhere. I would guess most of the flow is occurring in the upper half of the tank, but coco worms and zoas on the bottom have a lot of movement. I have always had this problem, so it's not something I did recently. I'm just tired of gluing and ungluing things. Something is wrong with the upper half of my tank, and I can't decide how to fix the problem. Is it possible the flow on the top is too strong? I'm not sure how to fix that. It's the standard pumps.

 

[GobyWanKenobie]

The alk spike during Xmas was small, maybe one dkh over the course of a week. I usually dose twice a day, but only had the tanksitter stop by once a day. My contest chalice took a hit, but it may have gotten stung by my mummy eye.

 

[frank180reef]

might be interesting to check your alk before and after you dose...

 

[GobyWanKenobie]

might be interesting to check your alk before and after you dose...

I've been checking it every couple of days. It's never more than .5 difference. I was hoping that dosing morning and night would keep it even more stable than just dosing once a day. Every four days I dose Kent trace elements but its only 10/12 drops so I doubt that it could cause a swing. My 10% water changes are usually 10 to 14 days apart, but I don't think that helps or hurts my problem. I think it's either something to do with the top vs. bottom of the tank or maybe after a month or two in my tank, certain corals just get weak and fall prey to bacteria or whatever causes stn. Some corals have been in there for years, others just don't want to get comfortable.

 

[GobyWanKenobie]

I checked the water current, and it might be a little bit stronger on the bottom of the tank, probably the way the water hits the glass or bounces off the rock. I also checked my phosphorus which is a 4. That translates to .015 phosphates. Is that still acceptable or do I remember reading that a little more is better. Is it possible they are just starving? There is only one fish in there, and he eats rather quickly. I use Chemi-pure elite and Purigen. I feed 10 drops of various coral foods every other day. The zoas are spreading rapidly, and the only non-sps coral is a coco worm and a small lobo. I'm totally frustrated with this because it's my blue tenuis that's showing stn. I guess I'll just unglue everything new and put them back on the sandbed. Any ideas, bizarre as they may be? I know someone else had a similar problem, but he was running gfo, etc. My tank is pretty basic.

 

[delta]

Chemi-pure elite has GFO in it. GFO can cause issue but it would when they were on the sand too,

I am more curious as to what you are using to glue the frag and how much are you using

 

[GobyWanKenobie]

I use very small balls of WaterWeld, maybe a large pea amount, and the original Loctite gel. Sometimes I use the crazy glue gel from the Dollar Tree, but very rarely. I never do more than 5 frags in a session because I don't like microbubbles. My RSM skimmer tends to create microbubbles if I just look at it funny.

I just dipped 4 frags in Bayer and put them back on the sandbed. What I don't get is why do they have such great color and polyp extension if they aren't happy? I only dipped them because I think stn is a bacteria. I did, however, check them under a magnifying glass first, and there are no bugs.

 

[delta]

I would change out the epoxy you are using. I am betting that is your issue

 

[dannyp02908]

I used JB waterweld for years with no issue. Lots of people have.

Are you dosing in to a sump area or directly in the tank? If directly in the tank, possible the alk solution is hitting the coral before mixing completely and causing a localized spike?

 

[delta]

Aquamend is the only non reef product I know is safe for use in our tanks. http://www.amazon.com/Aquamend-Epoxy-Putty-4-oz/dp/B0002V2JHY and yes I know people use JB waterweld but that doesn't change my opinions on it.

And even then if the epoxy is touching the coral tissue it will burn it. I am not looking at his corals to see the coral tissue and what that looks like so Epoxy over Superglue can be a huge difference. So much comes down to details we do not have

I stopped using epoxy as it also causes other issues later down the line. I just clean the area make a small hole and use a small dab of supgerlue gel all it has to do is hold it for a week or 2 until the coral touches down any more and it prolongs the coral attaching

Fact it if it was a whole tank issue it would happen in the sand as well. I would be looking at hydroids, or the like and what he uses to fix frags in place. Even sponges can cause issues. If it were localized Alk it would more than likely not start only at the base.

 

[reefstarter]

Sounds about right to me I have same issue with a frag in my tank and that's prob exactly what it is

 

[GobyWanKenobie]

I don't have hydroids, but I do have what I thought were spaghetti worms only now I notice them in the rocks too, and I thought they were sand only. They are long white threads that appear and disappear. I've seen them touch my digis and pollicipora with no ill affects. BTW, those types of corals are growing well in my tank. Could it be the constant lateral current of the water? When I removed them, I realized they were all at the same height in the tank. And, I do always dose in the same area, so it's possible the alk and ca gets thrown in the same direction every day. First, I am going to pick a new dosing area, and after they recover, I'll try a wavemaker.

 

[GobyWanKenobie]

Delta, I don't take the frags off the plugs so the epoxy isn't touching the actual frag. Too bad, that would have been an easy fix.

They're usually glued down for a while before this happens, so it's something old corals have gotten used to, but new corals don't like, and it eventually starts to weaken them. It can be a slow death.

 

[SteveDola]

Have you tested the mag level? or salinity? IME, stn is a product of either alk fluctuations but a contributing factor could be low mag and increased lighting. Occasionally low flow can cause stn at the very base but that usually only occured on stylos, birdsnest, or huge colonies. Even though it was 1 dKH flux, there could be other factors in play adding stress to the coral. Many times its just not 1 thing. If the stn continues then best bet would be to cut the coral above the stn and re-glue. I just did this for my father...his tank, which has been set up since early Nov., had a gemifera start slowly ripping from the base...I tested and found his sg was a little low compared to his constant, alk was a little low at 6.5dKH and mag was 1200ish. All within a decent range but I think were contributing to stressing the coral which was the only 1 to exhibit the stn. I had to cut down the colony (roughly 3.5" bush) and reglue with bci super glue. All this while the color was perfect, PE was excellent and new growth could be seen. That was about 3 weeks...Im glad to report that its encrusting and stopped stning. Like the saying says, sometimes you have to break it down to build it up

 

[GobyWanKenobie]

LOL Good saying. My sg is 1.25. I have a mg test kit, but it's a pita so I don't test often. When Anthony tested it a couple of months ago, it was good, and I've kept the same mg dosing schedule so I was hoping it was still good. I guess I should test it myself. Interesting, but stylos, birdsnests, pollicipora and zoas are doing extremely well. A couple of old acros are also doing well. I'm trying not to cut these since they are small to begin with. It would be a frag of a frag. Based on pictures I took yesterday, I haven't lost anymore tissue since I moved them back down. According to my journal, I've saved my red planet before so it's not even a new piece. There is something off in this tank, and I can't figure out what.

 

[delta]

what does the tissue recession look like a picture would probably shed a little light.

What are the frags attached to the plugs with and did you attach them? what kind of plugs are they. Are all the frags from the same source?

And when you moved them what corals were they near? Be good to rule chemical warfare.